Curse

Tyla · May 11, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

I have a legendary vanquisher and I didn't use PS. There is a skill called [skill]save yourselves[/skill] that makes many prots redundant.

Enfeebling Blood is another.

DarkSpirit · May 11, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Enfeebling Blood is another.

If only that would affect all caster's spell damage as much as it affects damage from physical attackers, I would agree with you.

Abedeus · May 11, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Well... It does lower a bit. -1 attribute equals like 5-10 damage from Rodgort's Invocation ;d But still, in an area without casters Weakness is great.

DarkSpirit · May 11, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Well... It does lower a bit. -1 attribute equals like 5-10 damage from Rodgort's Invocation ;d But still, in an area without casters Weakness is great.

5-10 damage in HM is really lol. Agree but unfortunately, casters are quite common in PvE.

Paul Dawg · May 11, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

That's more or less what I was suggesting earlier thread: ditch the healer N/Rt and make another N/Mo instead (though I had [dwayna's sorrow] on that healer's bar, not on the MB's--and I honestly have to wonder whether [infuse condition] and especially [foul feast] are really worth the space they take up in a skill bar). Edited to add: And honestly I'm starting to wonder whether [dwayna's sorrow] is really important enough to force you to ditch the healer N/Rt, who gives you great benefits. From what I've observed--just over the past few days--heroes still don't spam [dwayna's sorrow] systematically enough that you get huge healing bonuses from it, even after the update.

As for [splinter weapon]: it goes on the curses N/Rt. That wouldn't change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A slightly more interesting question is whether, after the recent skill changes and AI updates, Dwayna's Sorrow+ Infuse Condition+Foul Feast on the MB is now adequate to replace VwK (which I've always disliked the AI for) and MBS/WoR and and possibly free up the healer to become a N/Mo or Mo/X healer/prot hybrid. But then where to put splinter?...

DarkSpirit · May 11, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

heroes still don't spam [dwayna's sorrow] systematically enough that you get huge healing bonuses from it, even after the update.

Dwayna's Sorrow lasts for 30s per cast, and it is AoE (cast it on 1 minion and nearby allies/minions would get the enchant too), so there is no need to keep spamming it. Maybe dual MM team builds, would come back in style.

Paul Dawg · May 11, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

All well and good, but I don't see quite enough heals from it in reality. I'll keep fiddling around with it.

Bront · May 12, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

My question to you all you Sabway users is: Do you find the Sab MM to be using Protective Spirit well or not?

Nope, almost never, and when they do use it, I think Olias uses it on a minion!

Aegis on the other hand, he's pretty good with.

Sab · May 12, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

@PS: Shaz and Chthon pretty much covered what I was going to say. However, I don't see what was so terrible about putting PS and Aegis on the MM. The money skills from Prot line work fine with 9 spec - namely, RoF, PS, Aegis, Dismiss. The other skills that do benefit from higher spec - Guardian, SoA, SB, and the Prot elites - I usually wouldn't run on a hero anyway. What's there to unpack? A full-blown Prot guy would be a waste, and hybrid Monks already carry Prot skills at a reduced spec, not too different from the N/Mo (11 Prot and 9 Prot respectively).

As for Dwayna's Sorrow, I've just gotten around to playing with it. While DS seems fairly solid, it leave a problem: Where does PS go? I'd rather not limit the build only to players with SY, so a copy of Prot Spirit is needed somewhere in the build. If it's on the Curses guy, PS absolutely needs to be microed or he'll run out of energy, and it just shifts the problem to the where the Splinter goes. If Splinter's on the third guy, then it limits him to Rt/ or /Rt, and you're still stuck with some sort of Channeling hybrid (as a full Channeler would be pretty weak).

Alternatively, you can put PS on the third guy, him being a /Mo or Mo/. If he's a /Mo, ideally he'd be a N/Mo to take advantage of the whole Soul Reaping thing that's going on. But what would you do with the rest of the bar? As a Mo/ hero, it's a bit of a waste to run that over a Monk hench if you're rolling with H/H (which is what this build assumes).

I really don't want to drop PS or Splinter, as they're both too good to not have. On the other hand, Dwayna's Sorrow is pretty amazing as well. wut i do naow???

distilledwill · May 12, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Sab: this is a trial build which Im working on atm: Im not sure how sturdy it will be in the long run, but it seems ok with a little healing backline (posted in the "AI Update on Dwayna's Sorrow" thread in the necro forum):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me!

[Cursing Channeler;OAhjYgHsoO5BhmdoMs7wYV1kLA]
[Dwayna's MB;OANDUshtSLVVB4BoBGNLCJgVVA]
[Icy Prot;OANCY8zTNDqJQqHBkXXVdnA]

The final build is very very much a work in progress, I was thinking a blood/prot hybrid, but I was struggling to find blood skills that were worth the investment. Similarly, I was thinking about a second Curser to fit MoP in there, but again I was loathed to substitute more damage in for a bit less protection.

Edit: Hell, I did it. I forced MoP and Weaken Armour into the build:
[Cursing Prot;OANDY5xfO1MLxnAqFQedV1dC]

I actually have a +1+1 SR headpiece, so Icy Veins is significantly more powerful than the build above suggests.

why not?

Targuil · May 12, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

@PS: Shaz and Chthon pretty much covered what I was going to say. However, I don't see what was so terrible about putting PS and Aegis on the MM. The money skills from Prot line work fine with 9 spec - namely, RoF, PS, Aegis, Dismiss. The other skills that do benefit from higher spec - Guardian, SoA, SB, and the Prot elites - I usually wouldn't run on a hero anyway. What's there to unpack? A full-blown Prot guy would be a waste, and hybrid Monks already carry Prot skills at a reduced spec, not too different from the N/Mo (11 Prot and 9 Prot respectively).

As for Dwayna's Sorrow, I've just gotten around to playing with it. While DS seems fairly solid, it leave a problem: Where does PS go? I'd rather not limit the build only to players with SY, so a copy of Prot Spirit is needed somewhere in the build. If it's on the Curses guy, PS absolutely needs to be microed or he'll run out of energy, and it just shifts the problem to the where the Splinter goes. If Splinter's on the third guy, then it limits him to Rt/ or /Rt, and you're still stuck with some sort of Channeling hybrid (as a full Channeler would be pretty weak).

Alternatively, you can put PS on the third guy, him being a /Mo or Mo/. If he's a /Mo, ideally he'd be a N/Mo to take advantage of the whole Soul Reaping thing that's going on. But what would you do with the rest of the bar? As a Mo/ hero, it's a bit of a waste to run that over a Monk hench if you're rolling with H/H (which is what this build assumes).

I really don't want to drop PS or Splinter, as they're both too good to not have. On the other hand, Dwayna's Sorrow is pretty amazing as well. wut i do naow???

Okay, this may sound silly but: N/mo healers boon. I tested it. He spams it on recharge even when not in battle. And you may add [skill]heal party[/skill], [skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill] and other things. [skill]Healer's boon[/skill] lasts 10 sec and recharge 10 sec. More if you have staff with 20% ench. It's quite little to none downtime. You may even spec a little to prot like 10 soul reaping, 12 healing, 8 prot and take [skill]shield of absorption[/skill] or [skill]guardian[/skill]. Add [skill]dwayna's sorrow[/skill] here and he becomes quite good. I really think it may be better than n/rt healer. You miss divine favor bonus but heals are decent even without it. And this way you can keep your PS on MM, splinter on SS.

Give it a try and say what you think.

Problem. · May 12, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

the ps problem isn't an issue if the human is a monk, which i am ^^

DarkSpirit · May 12, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

To get enough heals from DS would be 1) get minions dying with enough frequency 2) have lots of minions. Jagged Bones, Bone minions, Shamblings, can be useful for such build. Maybe consider 2 MMs, one running heals with DS and the other running prot with PS. You can also add fiends and shamblings to the mix for the other MM. Would that be enough to replace the N/Rt healer? I have yet to try it out though.

Paul Dawg · May 12, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Right, that's basically what I was suggesting back here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...postcount=539). So, question for ya: Do you find that this new N/Mo guy is worth scrapping the original healer N/Rt for? That's basically the $64,000 question, because I agree with you that if you keep [protective spirit] on the bomber and [splinter weapon] on the curses necro, the only viable way to add [dwayna's sorrow] to the mix is to make a brand new N/Mo with [healer's boon].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targuil

Okay, this may sound silly but: N/mo healers boon. I tested it. He spams it on recharge even when not in battle. And you may add [skill]heal party[/skill], [skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill] and other things. [skill]Healer's boon[/skill] lasts 10 sec and recharge 10 sec. More if you have staff with 20% ench. It's quite little to none downtime. You may even spec a little to prot like 10 soul reaping, 12 healing, 8 prot and take [skill]shield of absorption[/skill] or [skill]guardian[/skill]. Add [skill]dwayna's sorrow[/skill] here and he becomes quite good. I really think it may be better than n/rt healer. You miss divine favor bonus but heals are decent even without it. And this way you can keep your PS on MM, splinter on SS.
Give it a try and say what you think.

Chthon · May 13, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

@PS: Shaz and Chthon pretty much covered what I was going to say. However, I don't see what was so terrible about putting PS and Aegis on the MM. The money skills from Prot line work fine with 9 spec - namely, RoF, PS, Aegis, Dismiss. The other skills that do benefit from higher spec - Guardian, SoA, SB, and the Prot elites - I usually wouldn't run on a hero anyway. What's there to unpack? A full-blown Prot guy would be a waste, and hybrid Monks already carry Prot skills at a reduced spec, not too different from the N/Mo (11 Prot and 9 Prot respectively).

As for Dwayna's Sorrow, I've just gotten around to playing with it. While DS seems fairly solid, it leave a problem: Where does PS go? I'd rather not limit the build only to players with SY, so a copy of Prot Spirit is needed somewhere in the build. If it's on the Curses guy, PS absolutely needs to be microed or he'll run out of energy, and it just shifts the problem to the where the Splinter goes. If Splinter's on the third guy, then it limits him to Rt/ or /Rt, and you're still stuck with some sort of Channeling hybrid (as a full Channeler would be pretty weak).

Alternatively, you can put PS on the third guy, him being a /Mo or Mo/. If he's a /Mo, ideally he'd be a N/Mo to take advantage of the whole Soul Reaping thing that's going on. But what would you do with the rest of the bar? As a Mo/ hero, it's a bit of a waste to run that over a Monk hench if you're rolling with H/H (which is what this build assumes).

I really don't want to drop PS or Splinter, as they're both too good to not have. On the other hand, Dwayna's Sorrow is pretty amazing as well. wut i do naow???

My intuition is:

Take prot off the MB.
Put condition removal and party healing on the MB through Infuse Condition + Foul Feast + Dwayna's Sorrow.
Move splinter to the curse guy.
Replace N/Rt healer with N/Mo or Mo/X heal/prot hybrid. N/Mo would probably have to be HBoon. Mo/X could probably be a plain old WoH hybrid.

Alternatively,

Take prot off the MB.
Put condition removal on the MB through Infuse Condition + Foul Feast.
Move splinter to the MB.
Replace N/Rt healer with N/Mo or Mo/X heal/prot hybrid and give it Dwayna's Sorrow.

All of the above is theorycraft, since I've been working on 8-man areas recently, I don't typically spend a hero slot on healers in 8-man areas.

Targuil · May 13, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Right, that's basically what I was suggesting back here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...postcount=539). So, question for ya: Do you find that this new N/Mo guy is worth scrapping the original healer N/Rt for? That's basically the $64,000 question, because I agree with you that if you keep [protective spirit] on the bomber and [splinter weapon] on the curses necro, the only viable way to add [dwayna's sorrow] to the mix is to make a brand new N/Mo with [healer's boon].

Ahh, didn't see you post but i made some new points anyway.

DarkSpirit · May 13, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

To get enough heals from DS would be 1) get minions dying with enough frequency 2) have lots of minions. Jagged Bones, Bone minions, Shamblings, can be useful for such build. Maybe consider 2 MMs, one running heals with DS and the other running prot with PS. You can also add fiends and shamblings to the mix for the other MM. Would that be enough to replace the N/Rt healer? I have yet to try it out though.

I am still tweaking it. Not too bad with 2 MMs although the starting can be alittle tougher before you get your minions, just try to fight a weak mob when you start. After that, most places would be a breeze.

[MM1 N/Mo;OANDUslfOL1jaVANoUrHtkqK]
[MM2 N/Mo;OANDUshtSLVVBHVYCLCJgGNVVA]
[Curse/Channel N/Rt;OAhkYgHcoIqT1uMs7sDYsERytqC]

The condition management is handled by the second MM through Foul Feast. Weapon of Fury can be replaced by SS if you like. Remove Hex can also be replaced by Aegis.

I Is Special · May 15, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Is it wise to spec 10 into healing just for a 35hp heal every 5 seconds?

Bront · May 15, 2008, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Is Special

Is it wise to spec 10 into healing just for a 35hp heal every 5 seconds?

It's either 10/8 or 9/9, and given the amount of energy Soul Reaping gives you, you can spare a point or two of it to get the extra healing.

It's an alternative to the Protection build, but it functions well enough.

DarkSpirit · May 15, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Is Special

Is it wise to spec 10 into healing just for a 35hp heal every 5 seconds?

That is 35hp heal for each party member each time a minion dies. Theoretically, with Jagged Bones, you can have an unlimited supply of minions. With 20 minions, that is a total of 20 X 35 X 8 = 5600hp heal, for a 8-man team, during the minions's first death.

The current build setup stands as this, but I am still tweaking it:

[Protection MM N/Mo;OANDUslfSLVVBoBKVKg1DBEVVA]
[Healing MM N/Mo;OANDUshtSLVVBYCLCJgGNTfVVA]
[Curse/Channel N/Rt;OAhkYgHcoIqU1WZwujdAGDjYyVVF]

In any case, I recommend bringing Mhenlo along for more healing in HM. Henchies used: Mehnlo, Herta, Cynn, and Talon.

Variants:
Weapon of Fury can be replaced by SS
Feast for the Dead can be replaced by another Taste of Death if you are in an area where mobs are not far apart

Edit: Updated with Cure Hex